Indrivning av skulder i utlandet - Utlandsbosatta med skulder i Sverige

[Meurm23]

Hej!

Jag vet vad som gäller om man jobbar i Danmark, dvs att det i Danmark inte görs någon löneutmätning på privata skulder, samt:
"Danmark är undantaget – där går det inte att ansöka om eller fastställa ett europeiskt betalningsföreläggande"
Då borde det innebära att det inte går på Grönland heller, då Grönland inte ens är med i EU, eller?

Det är inte statliga skulder vi pratar om här utan privata skulder, från tidigare banklån och dylikt.

Hur fungerar det i Grönland, som hör till Danmark, om någon nu känner till det?

Jag har försökt att söka svar genom källorna jag kunde hitta i Grönland vad som gäller, om det skiljer sig ifrån hur det är i Danmark, dvs om utmätningsreglerna på Grönland skiljer sig från hur reglerna ser ut i Danmark, utan att finna något konkret svar.
Jag har också valet att antingen öppna upp ett bankkonto på Grönland och få lönen dit, eller att genom CPR numret istället öppna upp ett bankkonto på Danmark och få lönen dit.
Vilket tror ni skulle vara att föredra när man har skulder i Sverige, sett till utmätning och dylikt, att få det till danskt bankkonto, eller ett bankkonto på Grönland?

Det Nordiska skatteavtalet är dessvärre inte Grönland med i, vilket skulle kunna innebära dubbel beskattning (som dock är avdragbar?) om man står kvar skriven i Sverige.
Hade ni föredragit att stå kvar som folkbokförd i Sverige eller att helt enkelt skriva ut sig från Sverige? Jag ser här på forumet att många skriver att man inte bör skriva ut sig från Sverige, och vissa som säger annat.
Hur fungerar det då med sexmånadersregeln och dylikt, någon som vet?
Begränsad skatteplikt känner jag till att det blir vid kortare vistelse (under 6 månader), men om man stannar kvar i Grönland då?
Hade ni föredragit att man skriver ut sig från Sverige då för att undvika dubbel beskattning, eller finns det här någon fördelaktig regel som gör att man kan vara kvar skriven i Sverige iallafall, utan att det ska bli en märkbar dubbel beskattning?

Europeiskt betalningsföreläggande gäller endast för EU-länder, eller?

Grönland är inte med i EU, men hör till Danmark.

Jag vet att @Lasseman är duktig på den här typen av frågor och kanske rent av har erfarenhet av något ärende med någon som flyttat till / jobbar på Grönland, men har skulder i Sverige?

Jag är fullt medveten om följande:

"Om du är nordisk medborgare omfattas du av avtalet om internordisk flytt.
Det skickas därför automatiskt ett meddelande till folkbokföringsregistret i ditt hemland när du tas med i folkbokföringsregistret på Grönland."

Så det handlar inte om att göra något i hemlighet, utan mer konkret vad som gäller sett till reglerna. Jag är fullt införstådd med att det vid folkbokföring på Grönland också kommer innebära att man kommer kunna se detta i det Svenska registret.
Skulle det då vara mer fördelaktigt för en själv att enbart ha ett skattepersonnummer, som då skiljer sig från CPR nummer?

Uppskattar mycket om någon kan ge klarhet i detta.

 

[Meurm23]

Någon som vet vad som gäller på Grönland? Är det samma regler som i Danmark där? Skillnad om man har bankkonto på Grönland eller Danmark?
Gjorde en tråd om detta också och såg nu denna tråden som känns relevant i sammanhanget.

Grönland är inte med i EU, men "hör till Danmark".

 

[Lasseman]

Jag vet inget om Grönland..

 

[MOHAMED]

Applying in English, since I cam across this topic by chance:

To make a long story short: yes Kronofogden can enforce orders in for instance the Benelux. But the options are severely limited unless it is regarding tax and government liabilities. Anything else becomes a black box if Kronofogden tries to enforce abroad.



Let me give you the Benelux example. In this case there are 2 scenario’s, one being the claim being at the debt collection company and second the claim being with Kronofogden, because there is a difference between the 2 processes.

When the claim is only at the debt collection company they can easily send the collection to a collection company in the Benelux to claim there. Note in that case that there are constraints on the Swedish inkasso there, one being the interest rate that is being charged by the owner of the debt, that will have to be recalculated from when the debt was payable in full, which can, depending on the total debt can incur a loss for the incase company for a couple of hundreds, or thousands of euro’s. Then it goes through the legal system in the Benelux, and can be enforced through the courts, and then executed, unless there is an objection from the debtor, and he challenges the procedure. Usually Swedish inkasso companies tend to lose that once the law in the Benelux is applied, because the laws differ significantly when it comes to enforcing debt across the EU.



When Kronofogden has the determined the debt, things also change significantly. Note that Kronofogden cannot just send the debt to be enforced in the Benelux like it is in Sweden, there is a framework that has to be used, and is actually quite limiting.

Basically they are stuck with using the European Attachment Order, which only applies to the bank accounts of the debtor in the Benelux (or the EU, but I am mainly talking about the Benelux since that is my area of practice), but not on assets that the debtor owns abroad. They have, as of now, no possibility to attach the assets of the debtor, something that may change in the future, but which is a bridge too far for many EU countries. Also the bank account should be on the debtor only, so a shared account cannot be enforced. And I may be mistaken, it is also a one off, so it is mainly used for convicted criminals.



The next scenario is a Swedish only principle, where the debt collection companies, after the debt has become enforceable by Kronofogden after a while retract it from Kronofogden to try to enforce it later when the debtor has assets is in the Benelux not allowed. There is an actual ‘double jeopardy’ law where if the claim went to court, and became enforceable (in Sweden Kronofogden!), and is then retracted and then reasserted is invalid, because removing the claim from the court (Kronofogden!) means according to the law, at least in the Netherlands and Belgium that the debt does not exist anymore and cannot be reenforced.



Difficulty for enforcing is usually due to the mismatch in enforcement practices and the incompatibility of the laws in different countries addressing the way on how to enforce debts; Sweden is quite free, there Kronofogden takes all decisions without a judge, since they are Judge, Jury and Excecutioner. In other countries there is a clear divide between the roles.



Also someone mentioned that the public records are not as good in the Benelux as they are in Sweden. That is farther from the truth actually; public records are on par with Sweden if not better, the difference is that even though they are public, if it relates to a person, the person is deemed to be the sole owner of his/ her information, and no one else than the government and the citizen can access the information.

There is no ‘open’ setting of that information, it is by default hidden, and it can even be freely requested to further ‘hide’ the information from prying eyes, and that is lifelong. Heck if you send a document here with the person number visible on it they return it immediately stating that the personnumber (BSN) should be made invisible on the document prior to sending. So there is a clear change in handling.

The rate to which Kronofogden or the debt collection agencies have access to the population register in the Benelux is thus severely limited, or even none-existent.



So in short things are enforceable, but very limited, and not that easy to do. The chances of a crash and burn for the Swedish debt collection companies or Kronofogden are often far greater in front of the courts here than in Sweden of course. And people from the Benelux usually fight back a bit more than the average Swedish citizen. The difference is private vs state debts, state usually just get enforced anyway, private can be very difficult abroad, especially if the debt is ‘sold’ to a inkassobolag.



The law in the Benelux is definitely geared to make sure that the debtor pays, do not get me wrong, but the way that it is enforced is often too different to just be able to do it abroad.

Also there is a difference in the law: in Sweden the debtor has to prove if he/ she does not have a debt etc. In the Benelux the law is: “Wie eist, bewijst”, loosely translated: ‘He who demands, has the burden of proof’. In Sweden that is the opposite. And a very big incompatibility between the justice systems.

All one has to do is ask for the physical signature. If it is not there, the debt does not exist.

And electronic signature with Bank-Id does not count, based on the how the PN system works in those countries, plus the high incidence of identity fraud in Sweden does not help usually.



So enforcing is possible, and readily available, but extremely limited unless it is a state debt. I stood on both sides with clients, and can attest to how difficult it can be for private debts from Sweden to be enforced by Kronofogden in the Benelux.

hi
i have got an invoice from Intrum in belgium to pay for a swidish banc, i did pay because i was stressed for having problems here. then i have got 2 letters from swidish inkasso but in Kivra from another 2 bancs.

my quistion is are those 2 swidish inkassio going to claim here in belgium or my debt is going to stay in sweden

 

[Lasseman]

hi
i have got an invoice from Intrum in belgium to pay for a swidish banc, i did pay because i was stressed for having problems here. then i have got 2 letters from swidish inkasso but in Kivra from another 2 bancs.

my quistion is are those 2 swidish inkassio going to claim here in belgium or my debt is going to stay in sweden

it is up to the debt collection company

 

[MOHAMED]

it is up to the debt collection company

Is there any chance to not be enforced in the benelux by the swidish inkasso

 

[Lasseman]

Is there any chance to not be enforced in the benelux by the swidish inkasso

Sure, if they dont wont to.

 

[TheLawSister]

Hi
i have got an invoice from Intrum in belgium to pay for a swidish banc, i did pay because i was stressed for having problems here. then I have got 2 letters from Swedish debt collection but in Kivra from another 2 banks.

my quistion is are those 2 swidish inkassio going to claim here in belgium or my debt is going to stay in Sweden

Hello, sorry for the late response.

If you got a letter from Intrum on your Belgian address (the last part is important!), or if it is in Kivra with your Belgian address, it depends.
Now Intrum, even though it seems like one big organization still needs to work based on the framework of the country they are in. In other words you have probably received the invoice from intrum.se since they have access to kivra, and intrum.be has NO access to kivra. Big difference.
So intrum.se can pass it to intrum.be, or another company in Belguim for collection, but then the Belgian law will apply, so always contest it if that happens.

Request Rejected

Incasso in België: Belgische wet en malafide incassobureaus - Mulderij Bedrijfsjuristen

Inleiding Heeft u wel eens last van niet-betalende of te laat betalende Belgische klanten? Wat zijn uw rechten? Stel: u doet zaken met een Belgische partij. Dit Belgische bedrijf lijkt betrouwbaar, maar u komt helaas bedrogen uit. U rondt de opdracht correct af en stuurt uw factuur. Ook na...

www.mulderijbedrijfsjuristen.nl

So the question is:
How long ago did you move to Belgium?
Check the interest rate that the collection agency is allowed to collect in Belgium PER YEAR (https://incasso.net/legal-interest-table-belgium/), so you have to count from the moment the debt was with the collection company, and it will have to be adjusted retroactively. Often the collection company wants to go for a split based on the time abroad, but unfortunately it is practically impossible sometimes, and the law here would demand the split, or non-enforceability.

In short, consumer protection in the Benelux is greater, but you need to demand it by contesting. In Sweden it seems to be the opposite, as a consumer you have limited rights.

Other option: apply for debt relief in Belguim: https://schuldaflossen.com/schuldsanering-belgie/

In short if the letter is from Intrum.se, don't ignore it, but it is not that important. Once it passes to an incasso company in Belgium, you should act immediately.

 

[MOHAMED]

Hello, sorry for the late response.

If you got a letter from Intrum on your Belgian address (the last part is important!), or if it is in Kivra with your Belgian address, it depends.
Now Intrum, even though it seems like one big organization still needs to work based on the framework of the country they are in. In other words you have probably received the invoice from intrum.se since they have access to kivra, and intrum.be has NO access to kivra. Big difference.
So intrum.se can pass it to intrum.be, or another company in Belguim for collection, but then the Belgian law will apply, so always contest it if that happens.

Request Rejected

Incasso in België: Belgische wet en malafide incassobureaus - Mulderij Bedrijfsjuristen

Inleiding Heeft u wel eens last van niet-betalende of te laat betalende Belgische klanten? Wat zijn uw rechten? Stel: u doet zaken met een Belgische partij. Dit Belgische bedrijf lijkt betrouwbaar, maar u komt helaas bedrogen uit. U rondt de opdracht correct af en stuurt uw factuur. Ook na...

www.mulderijbedrijfsjuristen.nl

So the question is:
How long ago did you move to Belgium?
Check the interest rate that the collection agency is allowed to collect in Belgium PER YEAR (https://incasso.net/legal-interest-table-belgium/), so you have to count from the moment the debt was with the collection company, and it will have to be adjusted retroactively. Often the collection company wants to go for a split based on the time abroad, but unfortunately it is practically impossible sometimes, and the law here would demand the split, or non-enforceability.

In short, consumer protection in the Benelux is greater, but you need to demand it by contesting. In Sweden it seems to be the opposite, as a consumer you have limited rights.

Other option: apply for debt relief in Belguim: https://schuldaflossen.com/schuldsanering-belgie/

In short if the letter is from Intrum.se, don't ignore it, but it is not that important. Once it passes to an incasso company in Belgium, you should act immediately.

for the moment i have been in belgium for 1 year.

i had a banc loan from one banc which was 150000kr, i got invoice from Intrum.be that i must pay 13500euro. this banc went directly to international inkasso from claiming.

the other banc the loan is 100000kr, i got invoice from swedish ikasso in kivra

the third one the loan is 70000kr, i got also invoice from sewedish inkasso in kivra

so the reaction of the bancs it seem different, the first one reacts immediatly in belgium. while the others nothing happend yet

do you think that amount less than 100000kr make a sens for them to not react abord.

 

[TheLawSister]

for the moment i have been in belgium for 1 year.

i had a banc loan from one banc which was 150000kr, i got invoice from Intrum.be that i must pay 13500euro. this banc went directly to international inkasso from claiming.

the other banc the loan is 100000kr, i got invoice from swedish ikasso in kivra

the third one the loan is 70000kr, i got also invoice from sewedish inkasso in kivra

so the reaction of the bancs it seem different, the first one reacts immediatly in belgium. while the others nothing happend yet

do you think that amount less than 100000kr make a sens for them to not react abord.

Ok since it is already passed to intrum.be, please ask for a interest specification when it was moved from intrum.se to intrum.be. So you can do the interest rate calculation from the moment it was at intrum.se. So based on the past years it should be around 1,75%. Tis year it went up a lot, but until 31/12/2022 it was 1,75%. So make sure that is reflected properly and not the Swedish inflated rate.
So before paying, ask for a DETAILED specification, and they have to provide it. Means that they might have to pause the process until they have it, but they need to provide it to you when you make the request.

If they can they will try to send any claim to a partner in Belgium. If it makes sense is based on the cost/risk calculation; Intrum is big enough to absorb that and take the risk but others might not want to. But if you have many debts in Sweden, I would apply for the debt restructuring in Belgium; it is normally 3 years, and your administrator will try to talk the debtors down in taking care of just the principal, or take the loss in de debt restructuring.